December 20, 2007

Arguments Against God

Posted in atheism, christianity, conspiracy theory, creationism, darwinism, evolution, intelligent design, Paleoanthropology, Personal Ramblings, Sociology, Zoology at 10:36 am by Bram Janssen

Of all the foolish things people believe, God is one of the most extraordinary. I think it’s alright to have the personal belief that your life is being guided by a divine being, but it’s not alright to fight about it to the death – or at least utter tediousness – without having sufficient proof for it.

And there is no proof for God, folks, it’s time to face up to that fact. The time when the world was an almost wondrous affair are all but gone, thanks to science. What came in place of God is the beauty of the real world. Isn’t the natural world amazing and breathtaking enough, do you really even need to throw a supernatural being in the mix to be awed by reality? Isn’t life on Earth incredible enough- just look at all the incredible shapes of life! What about quantum mechanics? Astronomy? Psychology? All that science uncovers in these fields inspires in me the same awe that miracles would- all without need of a God. In fact: don’t you agree the “revelation” that all of this came about without a maker is even more inspiring than explaining it away by means of a mysterious Creator?

That said, there are millions of people around the world who claim to have evidence of said Creator. One of the themes of this weblog will be presenting these various forms of evidence and dismantling them. Yes: dismantling. As yet, there is no evidence for the existence of God or even the suggestion of the existence of God, as I will show you. Until I get down to penning about this, I’d like to present one of the strongest arguments against God I’ve heard so far, by the great George Carlin.

58 Comments »

  1. Russ Cruzan said,

    Psa 19:1 The heavens declare the glory of God and the firmament shows His handiwork.
    Day unto day utters speech and night unto night reveals knowledge.
    There is no speech nor language where their voice is not heard.

    Psa 97:6 The heavens declare his righteousness, and all the people see his glory.

  2. Bram Janssen said,

    Russ Cruzan–
    “Psa 97:6 The heavens declare His righteousness, and all the people see his glory.”

    Psa 19:1 The heavens declare the glory of God and the firmament shows His handiwork.
    Day unto day utters speech and night unto night reveals knowledge.
    There is no speech nor language where their voice is not heard.

    It all did until the likes of Galileo, Kuipers, Hawking and Hubble came along, after which all of this inexplicable, divine glory was proven to be entirely natural. It’s called astronomy these days.

  3. Russ Cruzan said,

    You are correct. No one can prove that God exists. Neither can anyone prove that God does not exist. In order to prove that God does not exist, you would have to be all knowing, which you are not.

    Astronomy does not disprove God’s existence nor does it prove evolution, the only alternative to account for the existence of life. In recorded history millions of species have gone extinct, most before the industrial revolution. Yet in the same time frame not one new species has evolved. No one has ever witnessed evolution. No one can recreate it. According to Darwin himself there should be millions or even billions of transitional forms yet science can’t find one definitive piece of evidence to prove evolution which is why when new so-called evidence is found, it makes headline news.

    To believe in evolution you must do exactly that, you must believe. Evolutionists walk by faith, not by sight.

    • SoCalJoe said,

      Actually, you can prove a negative.

      I don’t have a purple bunny in my pocket. I empty my pocket and look, no purple bunny. But in your logic, the bunny could be invisible and therefore, we could “never really prove” that a purple bunny wasn’t in my pocket. Actually, you could never disprove anything.
      So, this is what you base your faith in god on?
      An invisible god that has never been seen.
      Prayer that has been proven to have no effect on any outcome to any greater efffect than chance.
      Numerous books (quarn, many bible versions, bhagavad gita, upanishads, vedas, all claiming to be the real book of god.

    • SoCalJoe said,

      And, yes evolution has many proofs. You many consider studying the scientific method.

  4. Bram Janssen said,

    Russ Cruzan–
    You are correct. No one can prove that God exists. Neither can anyone prove that God does not exist. In order to prove that God does not exist, you would have to be all knowing, which you are not.

    You might not realise it, Russ, but what you are effectively saying here, is that the only manner in which to definitively answer whether God exists or not is to be omniscient. Has there been ever one Christian or heathen in all of history who was all-knowing? I like to point out to you, that by your line of argument, the only way to be certain God does exist is to be all-knowing.

    As for science not disproving the existence of God, I’d say science is faring well without religious ideas so far. Science has felt of yet no need for God, which is why they have always been reluctant to accept Him into their circle. Is science a theory of everything? Well, of course not, there are many, many things science can as of yet not answer, but furthermore- it’s not meant to be a substitute for religion. I’d like to stress this: science is not out to disprove the existence of God or destroy religion. Science is a method of conduct for drawing conclusions about natural phenomena. And so far, applying the scientific method to whether God exists or not has turned up no evidence in favour of God whatsoever. There is, on the other hand, actually plenty of evidence for evolution, but instead of raking them up for you – I can point you to websites and books if you’d like – I’d like to point out a misconception you appear to have.

    The reason why atheist scientists in general are so systematically unkind to religion is simply because reasoning from the premise of a devine creator is an inferior method of finding out facts about natural phenomena compared to reproducable tests and peer review. Precisely the reason why we’ve gone from approximately 1,000 years of: “Psa 97:6 The heavens declare His righteousness, and all the people see His glory” to modern astronomy is because of the scientific method. I sincerely hope you are not blind to that reasoning. Evolutionists do not walk by faith- they walk by the most testable, reliable and credible theory mortal Men has as yet deviced. It’s not a complete theory yet, but even so, it holds much, much more ground than Creationism does.

  5. Russ Cruzan said,

    “I like to point out to you, that by your line of argument, the only way to be certain God does exist is to be all-knowing.”

    I already agreed with you about this. Why bring it up again? All I said was you also can not prove that God does not exist. You cannot prove it either way. Done.

    “Precisely the reason why we’ve gone from approximately 1,000 years of: “Psa 97:6 The heavens declare…” to modern astronomy is because of the scientific method.”

    Please understand that the statement, “The heavens declare the glory of God” is not a scientific statement. It does not say, “The heavens ARE God” but that they, “proclaim the glory of God”. Science can tell us WHAT the heavens are, but not WHY the heaves are. The Bible is the only book on earth that tells us WHY the heavens exist. The heavens were created by God to proclaim to man certain truths about who He is. That God is all powerful, eternal and awesome. Psa 8:3,4 says, “When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained; What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visit him?

    God set you on this speck of dust called earth in a solar system that is only a speck in a galaxy that is only one amongst billions so that you might be humbled by Him.

    God is not against science nor is He against the scientific method. Faith in God does not in any way take away from science or the scientific method.

  6. Bram Janssen said,

    Russ, sorry for being confusing.
    By means of my “reverse-logic” argument I was trying to drive home that you yourself realise that there is really no proof for the existence of God. You agree readily there is no proof, in fact. Then why do you follow this up with stark claims of what He has done (create the universe and put Men on the Earth to admire His creation)? Please note that I am not trying to sound condenscending, I am not out to insult your integrity. Your argument simply does not follow any convincing logic to me. Hopefully you can see why.

  7. Russ Cruzan said,

    Hey Bram,

    Have you seen this?

    http://www.expelledthemovie.com/playground.php

    Sorry, I haven’t read your latest post yet. I will get to it soon.

    Russ

  8. Bram Janssen said,

    Thanks for that link, Russ, that video was interesting enough to inspire me into writing a blog post about it. I don’t agree with it, incidentally. Glad to fence words with you, good to see Christians who can disagree with courteously. Too rare, alas!

  9. Russ Cruzan said,

    Bram,

    I cannot prove that God exists, however, I can conclude that He does exist based upon the evidence. I have never seen the Toyota factory yet I am confident that one must exsist somewhere based upon the evidence in my garage. The creation itself is the evidence that there is a creator. It is a very logical conclusion to draw. In fact, to believe that a Toyota can exist without a designer is insanity. This is why I started this post with, “The heavens declare the glory of God”.

  10. Russ Cruzan said,

    How could you not agree with the trailer? All it said was that if someone suggests intelligent design that they may be discriminated against. How could you possibly know if this is true or not seeing that you are against intelligent design and have never experienced the consequences of believing otherwise?

  11. Russ Cruzan said,

    Bram,

    Here, in a nut shell, is the problem.

    When you ask an evolutionist the following question,

    “1” is to “2”
    As
    “2” is to ?

    a. 4
    b. 2
    c. -7

    The evolutionist will answer correctly, “a”, “4”.

    Then, when you ask an evolutionist this question,

    “Dog” is to “Puppy”
    As
    “Cat” is to ?

    a. Kitten
    b. Fish
    c. -7

    Again, the evolutionist answers correctly, “a”, “Kitten”

    But, for some reason, when you ask an evolutionist this question,

    “Toyota” is to “Engineer/Designer”
    As
    “Creation” is to ?

    a. Creator
    b. Random chance
    c. -7

    Something in the evolutionist misfires. Something malfunctions. Instead of answering, “a”, “Creator” they answer “b”, “Random chance”. Why? It is the same equation as questions 1 and 2. Why can’t the evolutionist use the same logic he used to answer questions 1 and 2 correctly and apply that logic to come up with the correct answer in #3? Something must be broken deep within the central processor, deep within the heart of the evolutionist. It is not that the evolutionist CAN’T answer the question correctly; it is that he REFUSES to answer correctly. That is why Romans says, “For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools…

    If you had a computer that malfunctioned like this, you would trash it. “And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

    God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. For God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

  12. Michel said,

    Hello Russ,

    You asked:
    ““Toyota” is to “Engineer/Designer”
    As
    “Creation” is to ?

    a. Creator
    b. Random chance
    c. -7”

    I am an evolutionist (and an atheist) and the answer I would give on this question is actually a. Creator. Indeed, it is obvious that all creations must have a creator. That doesn’t mean that everything has to be created in a factory or by man or by a mysterious being called God. In the case of a living animal its creator is nature itself.

    Furthermore you also brought up the following statement:
    “To believe in evolution you must do exactly that, you must believe. Evolutionists walk by faith, not by sight.”
    Well, I call myself an evolutionist and I have read a lot about evolution and creationism. When I compare those two, evolution seems much and much more credible to me than all the things that are written in the bible about creation and all the arguments that creationists come up with.
    This doesn’t mean that I “believe” in evolution, it’s more that it seems very likely to me (because of all the evidence that is presented in science books) that evolution by means of natural selection is the “Creator” of all life on earth.
    As long as there is no other theory that is more likely than the evolution theory, I take the latter as most credible theory.

    I also noticed that you use a lot of quotes from the bible. You know what the problem is with the bible? Other religions also have books that they claim are written by their god. This is very confusing to me. How can I be sure which one of these books (if any) is the true word of god? I hope you can give me an answer to this question, because it is really breaking my nerves.

    Happy New Year!

  13. InTheBeginning said,

    Michel,

    (This is Russ)

    You said that you would answer, “A. Creator” but then you contradicted yourself IMO when you said, “In the case of a living animal its creator is nature itself”. The point of the quiz is that the designer of the Toyota has intelligence, therefore, the creator of the universe and life has much more intelligence. Nature does not have intelligence, it only contains random chance. Therefore, your true answer is not, “A. Creator”, it is “B. random chance”.

    There is much evidence concerning the Bible as the Word of God. How many books ever written even predict a savior? How many of those books then give the genealogy, in advance, of the One who is predicted to come. How many books that predict a Savior and record His genealogy in advance then actually produce such an Individual who then proceeds to change history and speaks as no man has ever spoken?

    It is not that the Bible does not have evidence, it is that your unbelief has blinded your eyes to see the evidence even though it is evident.

    The result of your unbelief is that the scriptures themselves are hidden from your understanding, which is why they do not make sense to you.

    “I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and revealed them to babes. Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight.

    And

    “For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ.”

    When someone turns from their sin and receives Jesus as their Savior, God lifts the veil that is obscuring their understanding of the Bible.

  14. Michel said,

    Russ,

    So you say that something that is designed and/or created can only be done by something with intelligence? How about the web that a spider makes? Does a spider have intelligence?? And there plenty more examples in nature of (even complex) things that are created without the need of intelligence.

    About the evidence in the bible: can you tell me in which part(s) I can find the prediction of the coming of the “savior” (I assume that you mean Jesus by that), so that I can judge for myself whether this evidence is convincing to me or not. Because I have to admit that I don’t know everything that is in the bible. But after reading some tales like those of Adam and Eve, the Ark of Noach and the birth of Jesus Christ from the virgin Mary, I came to the conclusion that these tales are very similar to those from the ancient Greek and Egyptian mythologies: fun to read, but I just cannot take them serious.

  15. Russ said,

    Michel,

    “Does a spider have intelligence?”

    Well, I am not a scientist but I would argue that a spider is “preprogrammed” to create a web. We all know that programming requires intelligence – that of the programmer, not of the program itself.

    “…can you tell me in which part(s) I can find the prediction of the coming of the “savior””

    Here is the first promise in the Bible of a savior from the woman’s “seed” (offspring).

    After man sinned in the garden God said to Satan,

    “And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her Seed; He shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise His heel.”

    Jesus was bruised but Satan was defeated on the cross.

    Here is another,

    Dan 9:25 “Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the command to restore and build Jerusalem until Messiah the prince, there shall be seven weeks* and sixty-two weeks*; The street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublesome times. * – ”weeks” literally means “sevens”

    Moses predicted another lawgiver like himself,

    “The LORD your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your midst, from your brethren. Him you shall hear…”

    And God clearly predicted that the Messiah would be the seed of David and sit on David’s throne and that His kingdom will never end:

    2:Sam 7:12 “When your days are fulfilled and you rest with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who will come from your body, and I will establish his kingdom. “He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever.

    The Old Testament clearly predicted a person of high importance who would come in the future.

  16. Michel said,

    “Jesus was bruised but Satan was defeated on the cross.”
    I thought that the legends in the bible say that Satan would be defeated on judgement day.

    All these predictions are rather vague in my opion. You can interpret these in many different ways. And that is exactly where real science beats the bible; science tries to present its test results (= evidence) as clear as possible in order to prevent confusion. The bible is only full of riddles (I guess I am just too stupid to understand His Almighty’s gibberish).
    I did not see any prediction in which something is described that can only refer to Jesus and no other person than Jesus himself.

    “And God clearly predicted that the Messiah would be the seed of David”

    According to Matthew 1:6-16 the genealogy of Jesus is as follows (my apologies if some names are not spelled correctly, I looked this up in a dutch translation of the bible):
    David – Salomon – Abias – Asa – Josafat – Joram – Ozias – Jotam – Achaz – Ezekias – Manasses – Amon – Josias – Jekonias – Salatial – Zorobabel – Abioed – Eljakim – Azor – Sadok – Achim – Elioed – Eleazar – Mattan – Jakob – Joseph – Jesus Christ

    According to Luke 3:23-31 the genealogy goes like this:
    David – Natan – Mattata – Menna – Melea – Eljakim – Jonam – Joseph – Juda – Simeon – Levi – Mattat – Joram – Eliesiar – Jesus – Er – Elmadam – Kosam – Addí – Melkí – Nerí – Salatial – Zorobabel – Resá – Joannán – Juda – Joseph – Semëín – Mattatias – Maät – Naggái – Eslí – Naóem – Amos – Mattatias – Joseph – Jannái – Melkí – Levi – Mattát Eli – Joseph – Jesus Christ

    First of all, the genealogies completely differ from each other. And secondly, both Matthew and Luke claim that Jesus is the offspring of Joseph. That would mean that Joseph must have done naughty things with Mary and we all know that Mary was still a virgin when she gave birth to Jesus. So Jesus is not a descendant of David and therefore he cannot be the true Messiah.

  17. Russ said,

    Michel,

    “All these predictions are rather vague in my opinion.”

    I agree. I believe that this also is by design.

    God has given you a free will. He allows you the awesome responsibility to choose for yourself that which you believe is true and to reject that which is false.

    If God were to make predictions in His word that were less vague, that is, exact detailed predictions in advance, by doing so, He would be removing your free will. You would be forced to acknowledge Him because you were “intellectually forced” by the evidence to do so.

    God will never take away your free will. He will never “force” you to believe in him.

    Instead, God reveals Himself to mankind in creation and in His Word. He tells us that He is Holy, without sin. When man disobeyed and rebelled against Him, God demonstrated His love for us by paying the price for our sin on the cross.

    Jesus did not die for His own sin. He willingly offered Himself as a sacrifice for your sin and my sin that we might have eternal life. He offers you forgiveness as a free gift – you cannot earn it – but He will never force you to receive that forgiveness. Instead, He still allows you your free will to choose to Him or reject Him.

    John 1:12, “But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name.”

    “First of all, the genealogies completely differ from each other. And secondly, both Matthew and Luke claim that Jesus is the offspring of Joseph.”

    The genealogy in Mathew is the genealogy of Joseph. The Genealogy in Luke is the genealogy of Mary. Both Gospels clearly teach that Jesus was born of a virgin.

  18. Michel said,

    Russ,

    You said the following in your last comment:
    “I agree. I believe that this also is by design.”

    What exactly do you mean by design?

  19. thisisatestandonlyatest said,

    This is for some of the commentators on this page: Hey, I believe in gravity; yet, science does not understand it yet. I guess I should say “it is only a theory” cuz physics has not produced a powerful explanation yet.

    Folks, the modern theory of evolution is backed by more data (including fossils, comparative anatomy, genomics) than just about any scientific theory humanity currently has…and we are nearning 150 years (1859-2009) of solid evidence gathering without finding anything that contradicts it. Oh, there are also many many transitional forms and we also know a vast majority of plants hybrdize to form new species in a single reproductive instant.

    Me: I’ve read the Bible AND all the scientific literature. If you have gone through the scientific literature, no problem, discuss evolution. If you have not read the primary research papers, then you have no idea what you area talking about (secondary sources do not count).

  20. Russ said,

    Michel,

    I hope I am understanding your question. By “by design” I mean that God purposely writes in such a way as to keep the truth of the word of God from the proud but at the same time He reveals Himself to the humble. For, “God resists the proud but gives grace to the humble.”

    Jesus said, “”I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and have revealed them to babes.”

  21. Michel said,

    To thisisatestandonlyatest,

    What’s so bad about reading from secondary sources about evolution theory to get more knowledge about it? If it is a good book, it is based on the primary sources without twisting the facts.
    I have studied chemistry and I have got my knowledge from school books, which are mostly secondary sources. Does that mean that I should shut up if it comes to a discussion about chemistry?

    Don’t get me wrong I have read books about evolution theory and I DO support it because of all the evidence that has been found to support the theory.

    To Russ,

    To me it seems more that God writes in such a manner that the credulous believe in it and that the people who think a little bit further see that the word of God is actually only the word of a number of normal human beings that have written the bible a long while ago.

  22. Russ said,

    Michel,

    I am not a scientist but there are many scientists who do not believe that evolution is supported AT ALL by the evidence. So, who is telling the truth? In fact, the fossil record is so devoid of transitional forms that some evolutionists have suggested that evolution must take place in rapid bursts and not leave any transitional forms. If evolutions is a fact, why all the different theories?

    But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, that no flesh should glory in His presence. (1 Cor 2:27)

  23. Michel said,

    Those pseudo scientists that say that the evidence does not support evolution also believe that the earth is no more than 5000 years old, you cannot take those people serious. They have hardly any knowledge of biology.
    There may be some discussion within the scientific world about details of how the mechanism of evolution works, but that is not an argument against evolution itself. Practically all scientists agree that evolution has happened and is still happening. Take insects for example, each time a new insecticide is developped some insects are resistant to it, giving them an advance that leads to a higher reproduction than the non-resistant insects. The old genes will dissapear within an insect species while the new ones will become dominant. In other words, the species is changing, this is evolution.

    About the transitional forms, only a very small amount of all living things on earth becomes fossilised. Therefore it is very unlikely to find every small transition back in the fossile record. But that doesn’t mean there is a lack of transitional forms in the fossile record, in fact there are MANY!
    Take a look at the following example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_whales

  24. Russ said,

    Many credible scientists disagree with the theory of evolution and some of them are agnostics.

    The Bible says that the fool has said in his heart, “there is no God.” The Bible says that the existence of God is so evident that those who deny that God exists, are actually, “suppressing the truth in unrighteousness.” And as a result, the wrath of God is upon man as is evidenced in death, suffering, violence, war, anger, etc.

    More importantly, the Bible speaks of a future day of judgment that is coming on this unbelieving world. Jesus spoke more than any on the existence of hell. He described it as a place of “…outer darkness; there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth” and , “…’Their worm does not die And the fire is not quenched.”

    Jesus said, “And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die.”

  25. Bram Janssen said,

    Russ, I wish you would stop citing the bible as evidence of some sort. It has been well-established for many decades that the “book of books” has no basis in divinity and cannot be trusted on face value. There are very many variations on the old and new testaments even today, and even all of these variations have been endlessly edited over 1.500 years. Which one of these many thousands of bibles are you quoting from as evidence?

  26. Russ said,

    Bram (nice to hear from you again),

    Actually, both the New and Old Testaments have change very little from the original documents as is evidenced by the many early manuscripts copies including the Dead Sea Scrolls.

    http://www.carm.org/evidence/textualevidence.htm

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Sea_Scrolls

    For the word of the LORD is right, and all His work is done in truth. (Psalm 33:11)

  27. Andries said,

    Dear Russ,

    Consider this one: If all live have orginated from an organic soup (a few billian years ago) should mean that all living things (plants, animals and humans), is related to me and considered to be my family, for we have the same offspring.
    This is beautifull, intelligent or not.

    Man’s origine is not a ape; man is an ape.

  28. erixx said,

    @Russ

    Which would suggest that the original documents are as riddled with erroneous statements as the current. Not a very convincing argument 😉

  29. Russ said,

    erixx

    I don’t understand your point. Please explain.

  30. Russ said,

    Andries,

    Saying that you are an ape does not excuse you.

    Professing to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man–and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things. Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. (Rom 1:25)

  31. Bram Janssen said,

    Russ:

    Why the sarcastic undertone in: “Saying that you are an ape does not excuse you.” Do you look at apes with ridicule? If so: don’t. They’re your closest relatives.

  32. Russ said,

    So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. (Gen 1:27)

  33. Michel said,

    “So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them”

    Yeah right!

    And according to the babylonians Marduk killed Tiamat and cut her in two halfs, one half formed the sky while the other one formed the earth. After that he killed Kingu and from his blood mixed with the soil of the earth Marduk created humanity.

    Don’t you get it? Both tales are no more then myths!

  34. erixx said,

    @Russ: You said:

    “Actually, both the New and Old Testaments have change very little from the original documents as is evidenced by the many early manuscripts copies including the Dead Sea Scrolls.”

    I replied:

    Which would suggest that the original documents are as riddled with erroneous statements as the current. Not a very convincing argument😉

  35. erixx said,

    So erixx concluded god does not exist. (erixx 1:12)

    Meaning: Since when does quoting prove anything?

  36. Russ said,

    Why quote the word? Because I hope that you will read it. Now I know that when you read what I say and you discover that I am quoting the Bible, you –
    Jump to the next paragraph but I would challenge you to read the verse and not just –

    God says His word is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Jesus likened the word of God to “seed” and when the seed is scattered into a person’s heart, it may sprout or it may die there. God sows the seed of His word into a person’s heart in the hope that it will sprout and grow and bring forth fruit but if the “soil” is hardened by sin, the seed is unable to grow and dies. You determine if you will allow His word into your heart.

    Secondly, the Bible says that I am an ambassador of Christ. In other words, I am coming to you with a message from another kingdom the same way Condalisa Rise might speak for the U.S. in another country.

    Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God. (2 Cor 5:20)

  37. Bram Janssen said,

    Ok Russ…
    Just like nobody listens to Condoleeza Rise (because it’s pretty, pretty obvious the U.S. are not trying to bring peace and democracy to the world- at least that’s clear to the world if not the US itself), your preaching is not working for me. You see: atheists do not believe God or Jesus are real or devine.

    The only way quoting scripture would have even the remotest chance of working on an atheist is by quoting passages that do NOT involve God or Jesus granting this or that, or being this or that. You see: God is not real and if Jesus was historically real, he was not the son of God. There is no God. There is no Zeus, there is no Amen Ra, there is no Santa Claus. There are no psychics, there are no aliens. There is no supernatural plane and there is no God. Quoting passages from the bible that say God condemns the non-believers do not work on atheists, because atheists know there is no God in the first place.

  38. erixx said,

    @Russ:

    “Why quote the word? Because I hope that you will read it.”

    My question was not why you would quote a book, but what it would prove.

  39. Russ said,

    I am not trying to prove anything to you. I am scattering seed. If it takes root, praise God. If it falls on hard ground I cannot change that. You never know how God might work.

    So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth; It shall not return to Me void, But it shall accomplish what I please, And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it. (Is 55:11)

    God does not need to prove anything to you seeing His existence is obvious in His creation. Why prove the obvious?

    THE heavens declare the glory of God; And the firmament shows His handiwork. Day unto day utters speech, And night unto night reveals knowledge. There is no speech nor language Where their voice is not heard. (Ps 19:1-3)

  40. erixx said,

    “I am not trying to prove anything to you.”

    Actually, you are. Using a euphemism like ‘scattering seed’ means that you think i ought to consider a quote from the bible as an authoritative answer. That’s why i asked you: Why quote from the bible? It proves nothing.

    And please, do not insult my intelligence by using phrases like “If it falls on hard ground I cannot change that”, because this implies my being wrong not to accept the truth of the word of some god.
    First, prove the truth of it, then call me an idiot for not accepting it. If you know you can’t do the first, then please, don’t do the latter.

    “God does not need to prove anything to you seeing His existence is obvious in His creation. Why prove the obvious?”

    Interesting. Could you elaborate a little on this? Could you for instance show me what exactly constitutes prove for his existence when looking at a sunset? I’m intrigued.

  41. Michel said,

    @ Russ,

    Your faith in God and the bible makes you blind to see reality: both God and the bible are made up by human beings.
    And I really dislike people that are scattering seed in the name of whatever god they believe in. Don’t you see all the misery in this world that is caused by people that want to spread their idiotic religion? Why are people killing each other for something that doesn’t exist?

  42. Russ said,

    Actually, I am not trying to prove anything to you. In fact, it is impossible for me to prove to anyone that God exists. You can’t even prove that you exist, can you? So how can I prove anything to someone who isn’t sure that they themselves exist?

    If I could prove to you that God exists, you would no longer have a free will for you would be intellectually forced to acknowledge that God exists and God will not force anyone acknowledge Him. He has given you a free will and He will not take it from you but He allows you the free choice to receive Him or reject Him.

    Do I need to prove to you that my wife exists before I quote her? If I know God personally, do I need to prove to you that I know Him before I quote the Bible? The Bible says that the church is the “bride of Christ”. In other words, God chooses to reveal Himself to whom He pleases just as you choose to reveal yourself to whomever you choose.

    When you chose a bride, you considered some and rejected others, did you not? God chooses to reveal Himself to the humble, but He resists the proud. He has every right to do so even as you rejected some who may have had the hots for you but you were not interested in them.

    But God is interested in you. He loves you and He gave Himself for you so that you will not perish. You are already condemned. You are without hope in this word. You are at war with God and yet while you are at war with Him, He is longsuffering toward you. He is, loving and merciful and is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

    BEHOLD, the LORD’s hand is not shortened, That it cannot save; Nor His ear heavy, That it cannot hear. But your iniquities have separated you from your God; And your sins have hidden His face from you, So that He will not hear.

    Jesus said, “…I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

    If I were to say that I do not know God when in fact I do know Him, would I not be a lier?

  43. erixx said,

    “In fact, it is impossible for me to prove to anyone that God exists. You can’t even prove that you exist, can you? So how can I prove anything to someone who isn’t sure that they themselves exist?”

    Silly tactics. The fact that i can’t prove to you that i exist or you can prove that i exist, doesn’t make your claim that god exists ANY stronger. In fact, it’s totally unrelated.

    Especially since you claim your god is as ‘knowable’ as i am. The fact that i’m unprovable therefore really doesn’t have anything to do with proving your god.

    “If I could prove to you that God exists, you would no longer have a free will for you would be intellectually forced to acknowledge that God exists and God will not force anyone acknowledge Him.”

    More silly tactics. The fact that i can prove Brussels sprouts exist, doesn’t mean i have to like them and eat them. You are clearly talking nonsense here.

    And, btw. If you are really such a solipsist, then why bother to answer me or even comment?😉

    “But God is interested in you. He loves you and He gave Himself for you so that you will not perish.”

    He could have just said: Ok, lets start over again. That surely would have saved him and me a lot of trouble and silly situations.

  44. Russ said,

    Interesting, you can prove that Brussels sprouts exist but you cannot prove that you exist.🙂

    “…you claim your god is as ‘knowable’…”

    One of the most interesting things about the Bible IMO is that the Bible reveals a God with a distinct “personality”. Here is just one of MANY examples I could quote, “”You shall not make for yourself a carved image–any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.” (Ex 20:4-5)

    Or this one, “For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways,” says the LORD. “For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts.” (Is 55:8-9)

    The Bible reveals a God who is very knowable. “I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own.” (John 10:14) And, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.” (John 14:23)

  45. Lammy said,

    IMO the personality of the God that is revealed in the bible is very similar to the personality of Adolf Hitler. God is such an asshole that I don’t even want to enter his kingdom.

  46. Russ said,

    The reason why God seems like Adolf Hitler to you is because you are at war with Him. You are in rebellion against Him even while He provides the breath in your mouth and the food on your table. The Bible says that all of mankind is at war with God.

    Jesus said, “The world cannot hate you, but it hates Me because I testify of it that its works are evil.”

    Jesus said, “And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” What truth was He talking about? He was talking about the truth about yourself, that you are evil and not good. It is this truth that sets a man free because when a man understands that he is evil in the sight of God, then He realizes that he needs a savior.

    Jesus said, “light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.”

    But Jesus also said, “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.”

  47. erixx said,

    “The reason why God seems like Adolf Hitler to you is because you are at war with Him.”

    You are so right! I can clearly recall this from our recent history (being Dutch). My grandparents were at war with Hitler and they disliked him too! Thank you, it all makes perfect sense now.

  48. Lammy said,

    “The reason why God seems like Adolf Hitler to you is because you are at war with Him.”

    Of course I am at war with such a vile thing as your God. First of all He doesn’t really exist and secondly the way He is described in the Bible shows a personality that is as narrow minded, jealous and sadistic as that of Adolf Hitler. During the second world war the allied countries stoud up against the evil of the Third Reich, why don’t the western countries of today stand up against the evil of religion?

    Oh yes one more thing, just as Erixx already mentioned: quoting the bible doesn’t prove anything!

  49. Bram Janssen said,

    Hey people-
    Please keep the argument a little more sophisticated than this. This looks like being one step away from throwing mud at each other. If you feel you have nothing substantial to say anymore, please state so. Keep the IQ-level up.

  50. erixx said,

    Good point by Bram, but then again; keeping ‘IQ levels’ up is kind of hard with this kind of flawed reasoning. The only method i am aware of to defend oneself against a ‘cum hoc ergo propter hoc’ is to make use of the hyperbole.

    But I’ll shut up for now🙂

  51. Babilonia said,

    ‘Russ Cruzan–
    You are correct. No one can prove that God exists. Neither can anyone prove that God does not exist. In order to prove that God does not exist, you would have to be all knowing, which you are not.

    You might not realise it, Russ, but what you are effectively saying here, is that the only manner in which to definitively answer whether God exists or not is to be omniscient. Has there been ever one Christian or heathen in all of history who was all-knowing? I like to point out to you, that by your line of argument, the only way to be certain God does exist is to be all-knowing.’

    This theory is exactly the theory that I defend to stress that tolerance is needed – for no-one knows ‘the exact truth’ (if there is one). The (in)existence of (a) God, who- or whatever He/She/It may be, can not be demonstrated by empirrical experience, as long as the transcendancy of such a God will be postulated. Surely post-modern society and the influence of deconstructivism show us the relative value of the concept ‘truth’.

    Kind regards,
    B.

  52. Russ said,

    Babilonia,

    ”…the only manner in which to definitively answer whether God exists or not is to be omniscient.”

    I believe that YOU exist. The reason that I believe that you exist is because you have chosen to REVEAL yourself to me. Still, I cannot PROVE that you exist.

    I believe that GOD exists for the same reason.

    In that hour Jesus rejoiced in the Spirit and said, “I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from [the] wise and prudent and revealed them to babes. Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight. (Luke 10:21)

    “All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.
    “Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
    “Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
    “For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.” (Mat 11:27-30)

    I can argue with great confidence that YOU exist. I can also argue with great confidence that God exists. I can prove neither.

  53. Babilonia said,

    I agree. I don’t believe in the existence of (a) God. But I choose to respect people that believe in (a) God. We can’t prove the existence, nor can we prove the inexistence of (a) God. If belief was called knowledge, then it would have been mere knowledge and wouldn’t have anything to do with belief😉. But we can’t prove anything when it comes to metaphysical questions. So why must we reject (all) religions and embrace the scientifical truth when we talk about metaphysics ?

    Kind regards,
    Babilonia

  54. Babilonia said,

    errata: ‘scientifical “truth”‘

  55. Babilonia said,

    errata🙂 “scientific “truth””

    merde

  56. Russ said,

    I agree also. The only way then that I can know God is if He chooses to reveal Himself. The question is them, has God revealed Himself to man? The Bible says that God has revealed Himself in at least 3 ways:

    1. Through the witness of the creation.

    The heavens declare the glory of God and firmament shows His handiwork. Day unto day utters speech and night unto night reveals knowledge. There is no speech or language were their voice is not heard. (Psalm 19:1-3)

    The Bible declares that the witness of the creation is so strong that those who deny the existence of God are “suppressing the truth”.

    For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man–and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things. (Rom 1:20-23)

    2. Through the word of God. While the creation declares that God exists, it is impersonal. Only through the Bible do we understand that God is HOLY and that He will punish sin. Most important we learn that though He is holy, He loves us and gave His Son for us so that we could be saved.

    For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. (John 3:16-19)

    Jesus paid the price for my sin and yours on the cross so that we might have eternal life.

    3. Through the witness of the Holy Spirit.

    But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. (John 1:12, 13)

    Becoming a Christian is a simple as receiving Him.

    What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things? (Rom 8:31, 32)

    God is for us, not against us because He loves us. Will you accept His free gift of salvation?


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